Episode 56 How to use Feng Shui for your Counseling Office with Susannah Alle

Mar 30, 2022

Which Feng Shui principles can therapists use in arranging their office space for good energy? Do you have overstuffed bookshelves, drawers, or closets in your office? How can you create a healthy energetic flow within your office?

MEET SUSANNAH ALLE

Susannah Alle is a certified feng shui consultant and the owner of Healing Homes Feng Shui. When Susannah first found out about feng shui in the 1990s, she was immediately hooked. She found it enlightening to see how our environments impact our lives and vice versa. Once she began to make feng shui adjustments in her home and saw how it improved her life, there was no going back.

Susannah began her formal feng shui training by studying the traditional methods of classical feng shui. After becoming certified, she began to explore the more spiritual approach of BTB (western) feng shui. She uses tools from both disciplines but takes a more modern, contemporary approach to her consultations.

Visit the Healing Homes Feng Shui website and connect with them on Instagram.

Email them at: healinghomesfengshui@gmail.com

IN THIS PODCAST:

  • Laying out your therapy office – 05:29
  • Bringing nature into your office space – 10:13
  • Elements in Feng Shui – 12:32
  • Avoid clutter – 18:45

Laying out your therapy office

Desk placement: have your back in front of a solid wall with a clear view of the door in the distance.

The reason for this is if you have your desk facing the wall and your back to the room, it feels uncomfortable … there’s no view, there’s no vision. (Susannah Alle)

Avoid having your desk facing the wall with nothing to look at in front of you.

Have a clear view of the door to have control of the room, your back to the solid wall behind you, and open space in front of you to feel stabilized and inspired.

If you cannot change your desk, consider:

  • getting a desk chair that has a back to it
  • putting something shiny or a small mirror on your desk to see the door without having to turn
  • putting a picture on the wall behind you that has a depth of field to it, like open fields or the ocean.

Couch placement: make sure that the client can also see the door from where they sit on the couch.

Coffee table: consider a round coffee table for a gentler energy flow, and avoid sharp corners.

Bringing nature into your office space

Always try to have a plant – a real one if you can – in your office space.

In Feng Shui, when we want to add [wood] energy to a room, we use … things that represent that element. (Susannah Alle)

A plant brings an important refreshing, vital, and calming energy to a room, and makes a noticeable difference.

Elements in Feng Shui

  • Fire: it is expansive and actionable energy. Use Himalayan salt lamps.
  • Earth: transitional and grounding energy, like spring. Use crystals, pottery, ceramics.
  • Metal: the energy of autumn. Use metal objects.
  • Water: quiet and soothing energy, like winter. Use a small fountain feature.

Avoid clutter

Having clutter around you, on your surfaces, in the bookshelves, on the tables, is both frustrating to look at, can create unnecessary stress, and creates stagnant energy.

You want to make sure you have a nice, even balance. Don’t have anything that can also be stressful; you want to find that sweet spot. (Susannah Alle)

Do not chuck all the clutter into a drawer or stuff it into a closet because that energy will still be stuck.

Get the energy flowing and moving throughout your office by using what you need, having some small things around, and either giving away or throwing out old things that no longer bring value or a service to you.

Connect With Me

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Resources Mentioned And Useful Links:

Visit the Healing Homes Feng Shui website and connect with them on Instagram.

Email them at: healinghomesfengshui@gmail.com

Energy Art with Michele Lundstrom

Practice of the Practice Podcast Network

Transcript

[CHRIS McDONALD]

The Holistic Counseling Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Behind the Bite, Full of Shift and Impact Driven Leader, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Welcome to the Holistic Counseling Podcast, where you discover diverse wellness modalities, advice on growing your integrative practice, and grow confidence in being your unique self. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I'm so glad you're here for the journey.

Welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. I hope you're having a wonderful day today. Before we get started I wanted to just share a review ahead on actually Instagram. Jennifer from Live Work Solutions wanted to share, "Thank you so much. I've been loving your podcast. Was hoping to reach out and let you know this. So glad to learn what a robust embrace of holistic mental health there is lately. I've loved your guests and have already implemented some of the suggestions. There's always more to learn, and I've really appreciate your dedication to this platform for sharing the good word." Thank you so much for Jennifer for reaching out. I always love to hear from listeners. So if you have an idea for atopic or something you want covered, feel free to message me at chris@holisticcounselingpodcast.com. I would love to hear from you.

So back to today's episode, have you ever wondered how to create the best energy in your office space? Are you curious about Feng Shui, but don't know where to start. I have Susannah Alle here with me today to talk about how to use Feng Shui in your therapy office. She first became hooked on Feng Shui from the moment she learned of it in the '90's. She found it enlightening to see how our environments impact our lives and vice versa. Once she began to make Feng Shui adjustments in her home and saw how it improved her life, there was no going back.

[CHRIS]

Susannah began her formal Feng Shui training by setting the traditional methods of classical Feng Shui. After becoming certified, she began to explore the more spiritual approach of BTB, which is Western Feng Shui. She uses tools from both disciplines, but takes a more modern contemporary approach to her consultations. Welcome to the podcast, Susannah.

[SUSANNAH ALLE]

Thank you for having me, Chris. I'm very excited to be here.

[CHRIS]

This was a topic I've been wanting to do, because I always have some consideration when I set up office space. I'm very, very particular because I want to have good energy flow and I was always interested in Feng Shui even, weirdly enough when I was a teenager. I was reading books about it and trying to do it in my house and figure out all the zones. So I thought this would be perfect for holistic counselors to look at and therapists to see what would be the best setup, especially if you're having people in person so they feel most comfortable in the space?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, definitely. Definitely, there are many things you can do in your office to improve the energy.

[CHRIS]

But before we get more into this, can you share more about yourself and your work?

[SUSANNAH]

Sure. So I've been in business now just over three years, but like you said, I first discovered Feng Shui over 20 years ago. Then in 2008 I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to live in Shanghai, China due to my husband's job. I found a school for expats that offered a Feng Shui class. So of course I immediately signed up, loved it and when I came home, I went back to my former job, but Feng Shui just really tugged at me. So I enrolled in school up in New York and the first weekend I was up there every morning I'd wake up and just be so excited that I got to go back to the classroom and learn more about Feng Shui. It just felt like nothing before. So I received that certification and that was in classical. Then I went on to train in BTB, which like you said, has a more spiritual component to it.

[CHRIS]

Can you share what that stands for too? I know we didn't get into that in the introduction.

[SUSANNAH]

I always mess this up, but it's black, black pantry, let's see, Black Sect Tantric Buddhism Feng Shui and since then I've changed, picking more classical classes, just going deeper and deeper because Feng Shui is a thousand years old so there is a lot to learn. I've taken related classes like biophilic design, which is just connecting nature and people in their built spaces and geometry

[CHRIS]

Okay, cool. So there's different kinds of Feng Shui, I guess what this means?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, there's, classical Feng Shui is there are many, many schools within classical Feng Shui, but it requires a compass reading and it's based on directions versus the Western style Feng Shui. I think you're familiar with bagua map with the grid. That's always laid on the floor plan. It can be laid in a room or a desk, but it's always laid in the same direction. So it's based on the same philosophy as classical function Feng Shui. It's just a little different.

[CHRIS]

Okay. So what considerations should therapists have with how their offices are laid out?

[SUSANNAH]

The first thing I always look at when I do a function Feng Shui consultation is the desk placement. I think, you mentioned to me that you had moved your desk and that you really like it. You want to have your back in front of a solid wall and with a clear view of the door, but the further distance, so catty corner or diagonal. The reason for this, if you have your desk facing a wall and you're back to a room, it feels very uncomfortable. I know that when I go to a restaurant and I'm sat at a table where my back is to the rest of the restaurant, I don't like it at all. So that's one reason. The other reason is when you're doing your work all day and you're staring at a wall, in Feng Shui, we love metaphors. So there's no view, there's no vision, you're up against the wall.

[CHRIS]

Literally.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, literally. And if you've been in any corporate office, then you've seen that most management executives and certainly the CEO do not sit facing a wall while they do the work because they're in command of the space. The other benefit with turning your desk around is that you're utilizing the space in the middle of the room, so it can open up the wall space and it just creates a nicer flow of energy. So if you have a situation where you can't turn your desk around, and sometimes the way desks are designed, you just can't turn it around. So there are a few things you can do to help make you feel better. One is to make sure that your desk chair has it back to it.

That gives you some more support. You can put something shiny on your desk or you can put one of those little mirrors that people put on the rear view mirrors and just put that on your desktop or put that behind you. But just so that when you're sitting at your desk, you can see the door without having to turn. Then the last thing is to put a picture on the wall behind you that has some depth of feel like something that has a pathway going through it, or like a path through a garden or a country road. I had somebody tell me that after hearing me talk, she went home and she took a picture looking out at a garden, but she took it inside, including the window frame so that when she hung up behind her desk, it looked like she had a little window to look out of, which I just thought was fantastic.

[CHRIS]

Yes, no, that's great. What about looking out the window? My desk is partially looking out the window so I can see a tree and other nature.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, that is ideal. If you can have your desk perpendicular to a window, because that gives you that natural light, which helps to keep the circadian rhythms in sync, which helps with sleeping at night and staying alert throughout the day and also gives you that view of nature, which is also very important.

[CHRIS]

I'm thinking set up for therapists in particular, if they have a chair or couch, is there any ideas you have about the best setup for that for facing the client or sitting kitty corner? Any thoughts with Feng Shui?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, they definitely want to be in the power position. So they want to be in the position where they can see the door and that they have a wall behind them because they're the person in charge. They're the one leading the session. So that would be my recommendation.

[CHRIS]

I've also heard too that, and this is not Feng Shui, but being, so you're not blocked in by a client too. So for safety reasons really being cautious of how you set up your office and if you see people in person.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, I would definitely think that would be advisable.

[CHRIS]

What about like a coffee table or do you think that with energy flow, is it better not to have something between you and the person you're working with?

[SUSANNAH]

I think it would be okay if there was space for it, but I would recommend something round. Yes, because then it's just a gentler flow of energy around it and when you have sharp corners, we call that Shakii, which is like attacking Chi, so if you're sitting in a position where a corner is pointing to you, that feels uncomfortable. So with a round table, it softens the feel.

[CHRIS]

Okay. We mentioned the nature as far as looking out a window. Is there other ways that nature could be brought in the office space that would help?

[SUSANNAH]

Oh yes. This is my thing. I love, yes, it's very important. So one thing I always recommend in offices is having a plant or two. The reason for this goes back to one of the fundamental principles or theories of Feng Shui. It's actually of all of Chinese metaphysics, but that is the five element theory. I usually use seasons when I'm describing the elements. So when you think of spring, the plants are coming up to the ground. They're expanding and growing, the birds are coming back, trees are blooming, it's warmer outside, people are outside and just the whole world is waking up and the energy is rising and expanding.

That is the energy of the wood element. In Feng Shui, when we want to add that energy to a room, we use things. We use things that represent that element. We use a plant because a plant is actually, that's what a plant's doing, it's rising and growing. I feel like, I always tell people if you have a room without a plant or vice versa put one in or take one out and just see how the room changes, because I think that helps tune into the energy of a space. I think it's a very noticeable difference because they are living.

[CHRIS]

So that would be a good experiment just to see what it feels like.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes. There's a famous study that NASA conducted. My understanding is they needed to find ways to clear the toxins from the space station, so they used various plants. If you just Google "NASA clean-up study or NASA and plants," you can get a whole list of common house plants that take various lighting conditions that you can add to your office. Because there's a lot, with all the electronics and furniture, there is a lot of environmental toxins.

[CHRIS]

So overall good for wellness to have the plants?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, absolutely.

[CHRIS]

Excellent. So you said the five elements, that was the wood element. What are the other ones?

[SUSANNAH]

Fire is the element that is related to summer, so it's that fully expanded energy. You're out with friends, there's lots of fruit and vegetables. It's the most young of all the elements. Earth is a little trickier. It's transitional. So it transitions, in the five elements it sits between fire and metal, but it transitions between the young and the yin and then the young. When you add earth elements to a room it's very grounding. Then metal is the energy of autumn. So think about trees dropping their leaves to conserve energy. So metal's just about pulling the energy in, and then the water in the five elements is mostly the end. So it's sort of like water that's underneath the lake that's still very, very quiet, like winter. So everything appears to be dead, but it's not. It's that stillness. In Feng Shui, when we add water, if you were to add that fountain, that's young water. That's something different. That's more like to bring in money and prosperity.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So is that a good thing to add too, is to have some fountain?

[SUSANNAH]

Sure, yes, because fountains are, that moving water is also, it emits negative irons, so it cleans the air. That's another benefit for having a water fountain.

[CHRIS]

True. I'm guessing fire, would it be like if you light a candle?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, except that you can't safely keep a candle lit all the time.

[CHRIS]

All the time. In some offices, you can't do that.

[SUSANNAH]

So to add the fire element, you can use Christmas lights or something like that. Himalaya and salt lamps are an excellent choice because that's something you can leave on all the time. It also seems there and then just even a few red objects. You don't need a lot to add the fire element. And most of the time color, isn't like the primary way of adding an element but with fire, that's the exception just because it's so bright instead of stimulating.

[CHRIS]

Yes.

[SUSANNAH]

Oh and sorry, then earth elements grounding. So you can add crystals or anything like pottery, anything made out of earth. Then metal of course, metal, anything made out of metal.

[CHRIS]

Yes, because I was just thinking that as you were talking about crystals, if that would be helpful. I think too, from what I've heard that wearing crystals is helpful for therapists, because we deal with a lot of heavy energy with clients or holding one in your hand or having them around your office is helpful.

[SUSANNAH]

Oh definitely. I would definitely recommend having them in your office. Yes, they're beautiful too. So that's nice.

[CHRIS]

Do you think essential oils, would that count as ---

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, no, I would count that, well, I guess, I mean, I guess technically you could count it as water but really I would just have that just for the point of having it. I would, yes, I think that essential oils are amazing because you can use different oils to bring different, if you want to be more alert or you want it to be more relaxed.

[CHRIS]

Then for in-person office, I know that I would have a diffuser and sometimes I would think about who am I seeing today? They could use some grounding. Or maybe I'm seeing more depressed people and use some Tangerine or wild orange and ...

[SUSANNAH]

Oh yes, that's great.

[CHRIS]

I can use that as well. I know a lot of our listeners are interested in a lot of these holistic practices as well. So it's always helpful. The other thing I was going to ask you about art, does art matter what you put in your office?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes. So behind you, of course these days, if you're doing Zoom calls or telehealth you want to be mindful of what you have in your background. We usually recommend something strong and supportive like a mountain just to add that extra mountain energy. Then of course in front of you is what you're looking at all day. So you want to be careful. You want to be careful to make sure you don't have any negative associations, like say you have the most beautiful picture, but your mean grandmother gave it to you and she always told you, you would never amount to anything. That would be horrible. So you don't want that reminder. Then also you don't want, you want to be careful about what the image is. So if it's an image of sinking ships or stormy seas, that's struggle and failure and it's not very encouraging. So a lot of people like to have inspirational messages. That's great. You can have a vision board, which is like a curated ---

[CHRIS]

That's a good idea.

[SUSANNAH]

Inspirational message. Yes, that's great. Then anything that you find beautiful that lifts you. Then you can even use art as an inspirational method. So if you've always wanted to live and work in Paris, then hang a picture of Paris as a reminder. You can play with it

[CHRIS]

So I think just being cautious of what you're choosing in your space. Then I'm thinking for telehealth too, because a lot of us are in telehealth, what you have behind you matters. That's important too

[SUSANNAH]

Right. So nothing too distracting, but traditionally we say something stable, but also again, something that's visually pretty.

[CHRIS]

So I'm thinking trees are probably good too.

[SUSANNAH]

Of course, yes. Some people like to make a sign out of their logo and that's a nice way of branding.

[CHRIS]

That's true. I think you mentioned before we hit record too, about being careful not to have too much clutter. Can you talk about that?

[SUSANNAH]

Sure. So if you have a lot of clutter on your surfaces, on your desk, on your bookshelves, around you, it's a lot of visual to take in. You want to make sure you have a nice even balance. If you don't have anything that's also very stressful, so you want to find that sweet spot. You also want to be careful about the clutter in your closets and drawers because even if you have the less immaculate office of everything's thrown into the closet then you want to, if the energy's still not flowing. Then what's behind you, especially if you're seeing patients in your office, if you have like an overstuffed bookshelf and it has books every which way, and that's what the person is looking at while they're talking to you, that's a lot to take in. Then functionally, we say like overstep bookshelves leave no room for new knowledge.

[CHRIS]

That deep.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes. Something else to keep in mind is if you're taking on new patients and you're ready to have some new patients, make sure your doors are not overstaffed. You want to have room in your file cabinets for your patient file. So if it's very full in there, archive out some that are no longer open cases and then maybe put some empty folders in.

[CHRIS]

So making space for the new in some way?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, exactly. It's a way of sort of manifesting.

[CHRIS]

Oh, okay. I've not really heard that before. That's interesting. to think how can you do that? I think, well, a lot of us too have electronic health records now as well, but if you're not going through your caseload and putting people inactive, you're not seeing anymore because that that's something that is case management. We got to manage too. If somebody hasn't come in a long and you just leave it all open, I think you're not leaving space for the new one.

[SUSANNAH]

Exactly. Yes. Then ---

[CHRIS]

I appreciate you saying that, because I think that's really symbolic, isn't it?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes. I do like to tell people, so if you really hate decluttering then, well, there's many ways you can declutter. You can do it all at once, which is amazing but it takes a lot of time and effort. Or you can just do like, just take on a little bit at a time. I always tell people to download an audio book or your favorite podcast and only listen to it while you're doing your decluttering as a way of like treating yourself. Then have compassion for yourself too because I feel like there's a lot of shame around having clutter and we live in a society where it's incredibly easy to buy things and once you buy something, it will be difficult to give it away.

[CHRIS]

So true.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes.

[CHRIS]

I think, too, a consideration for people that have smaller office spaces. I know mine is not huge at home, so it's just being mindful. I think it's setting that intention of how can I be creative with my space and what needs to, do I need to let go of my office because when I first moved in here, I was like, I had too much stuff and things that didn't belong. It's like, do I need this? Do I really need this in this space? Or can I put it in another room? That frees it up too. What are your thoughts on that?

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, so they are, what people usually say is like, do you love it? Do you need it? Do you use it? Then you can even add in the office to that because you can keep things elsewhere. I like to, if you have limited bookshelf space and maybe just have books that represent where you are now and where you want to go and not things that you did 20 years ago. So try to keep it current and moving forward.

[CHRIS]

Oh, I didn't think of that either. So books, of things where you are now and where you want to go.

[SUSANNAH]

Right.

[CHRIS]

Oh, okay. I got to do some clearing out.

[SUSANNAH]

It's fun.

[CHRIS]

When you've been in this field a long time, guess what happens? You accumulate a lot of stuff. That's why I'm thinking now is I'm clearing out my in-person office and going all telehealth. I'm like, Hmm, now is the time right to.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes because you're going to double your things

[CHRIS]

Yes, to really look at what is it. I think that a lot of listeners probably, it's a good time always to start decluttering so that you feel better too in your space.

[SUSANNAH]

Oh definitely. You can always put things away and just swap them out from time to time. I think it's a good way of marking the seasons. I read once that that is a nice way of slowing down time when you put different things out for different seasons

[CHRIS]

Slowing down time. We need that.

[SUSANNAH]

Right, because, yes you have an association with when it changes.

[CHRIS]

That's a good idea. I'm thinking for people's regular houses too, not just office.

[SUSANNAH]

Definitely.

[CHRIS]

So what are your thoughts on how therapists could do to keep their spaces clear of heavy energy?

[SUSANNAH]

Definitely a space clearing. Space clearing, a great time to space clear is after decluttering, after an illness, when you move into a new space, but especially after a major emotional event. So people who are seeing client or patients in person that is something they probably want to do a little more often too, because just like we accumulate dust and physical we need to physically clean.

[CHRIS]

Crumbs.

[SUSANNAH]

We also, the energy needs to be cleared from time to time. There are a couple ways you can do this. You can smudge, which is the most popular and that is as burning a bundle of sage. It is very effective. Sage also emits negative iron. So it really cleans air, but it's a very strong smell. Especially if you're seeing patients in person, it might be a little much for some people. The other thing you can use, it's called [inaudible 00:25:16]. It's a ---

[CHRIS]

That's my favorite.

[SUSANNAH]

It's amazing. That comes from south America and it's got a very high content, but it's a very nice, like much more gentler. I don't know how to describe it other than that. So both of those are good and you want to burn the smoke and just go around the room. I usually go in a clockwise direction, making sure I get into the corners and the closet, the cabinets, because you can't walk into those. I mean, so we're not moving, when we move around a space, we're moving the energy and the corners tend to be very stagnant. The other thing you can use the sound.

I find sound very effective. You want to make sure you open up a window, but in both cases in both and sound but you can use, I use King Shaws, which are like flattened bells and they're attached with a strap. When I hit them together and it's really loud and really vibrates. That's the whole point of using sound is it creates this vibration and it moves everything. So some people like to use singing balls or crystal balls or drums, some people like to chant. You can just clap. If nothing else you can always just clap, just go into the corners and clap a few times to create vibration.

[CHRIS]

So there's so many different ways with sound? That's awesome. I didn't realize chanting was one.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes. Well, anything that creates anything. You could just hit pots and pans if you wanted to. I mean, I don't know why you would, but ---

[CHRIS]

Put your frustration out.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes. Well, there you go.

[CHRIS]

Wow. That's really interesting. I love it. How often should you do that though? Is it just in those major events or?

[SUSANNAH]

You know, in my home, I probably should do it much more often than I do. I usually do it like every couple months and I think that's plenty. But if I were seeing patients, especially if, it depends on the patients, but if there's a lot of emotion I would want to do that maybe weekly, just something very quick because offices aren't that big. So it's not a big ordeal.

[CHRIS]

If you aren't able to burn things in your office, sometimes just, I have different sprays I use. You can get like a Sage spray or something like that.

[SUSANNAH]

Yes. That's nice too. You can always do sound.

[CHRIS]

Sound too, yes, exactly. So there's a lot of different ways. So what is a holistic strategy or technique that you use as part of your daily practice?

[SUSANNAH]

I try to meditate every day. It doesn't always happen, but when it does happen it just makes a big difference. So yes, I do that. I also, I've been trained in Reiki just for personal use. I do that from time to time and then I practice chigong.

[CHRIS]

Love chigong

[SUSANNAH]

Yes, yes. It's pretty incredible.

[CHRIS]

What's a takeaway you could share today that could help listeners that are just starting their holistic journey?

[SUSANNAH]

So one thing one of my teachers used to say to us is to use your Feng Shui eyes. One way you can do this is you stand in the doorway of say your office, what we're talking about today, close your eyes take a deep breaths and then open them and see where does your attention go? Sometimes that really, we don't always see what's around us. So you might not notice that big pile of papers that's been sitting there for a month. Then the other thing you can do is to take pictures, because I find that I don't see things around me. Then as soon as I take a picture of our room, I'm like, oh that looks terrible. So yes, I think that's really helpful.

[CHRIS]

That's so helpful. Thank you for sharing that.

[SUSANNAH]

Oh, you're very welcome.

[CHRIS]

So what's the best way for our listeners to find you and learn more about you?

[SUSANNAH]

So my website is healinghomesfengshui.com. My email is healinghomesfengshui!gmail.com. I do have a somewhat active Instagram account which is also Healing Homes Feng Shui. I'm very consistent.

[CHRIS]

We'll put all those in the show notes at holisticcounselingpodcast.com too.

[SUSANNAH]

Okay, great.

[CHRIS]

So people can reach out to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Susannah.

[SUSANNAH]

Oh, thank you for having me. I always love to talk about Feng Shui. So this is great.

[CHRIS]

Awesome. You reached the end of another episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. Be sure to visit us at www.holisticcounselingpodcast.com to access our show notes and all our episodes. Did you love this episode? Don't forget to rate and review wherever your podcaster is. Again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Until next time, take care.

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Self-Care for the Counselor - a holistic guide for helping professionals by Christine McDonald , MS,NCC,LPCS