What is sound healing therapy? How can you offer sound healing to clients with a history of trauma?
MEET LA Adkins
LA uses she/her/hers pronouns and is a creative, champion of solitude, storyteller, and certified sound practitioner and mindfulness meditation guide. She currently practices as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Holistic Wellness Therapreneur and is the Founding Owner of Reconnect With You, PLLC, a private mental health practice. She provides individual therapy, sound baths/therapy, and public speaking services, and she makes candles. She specializes in working with entrepreneurs, professionals, and corporations.
How she shows up in the world is shaped by her personal values, which are accountability, authenticity, autonomy, integrity, and transparency. She firmly believes that one’s relationships with others are both an extension and reflection of the relationship one has with oneself, which is why she is so passionate about working with individuals to help them know, better understand, and more fully accept themselves. Some of her hobbies are karaoke, mixology, and candlemaking. She sends you love, light, and sunshine!
IN THIS PODCAST:
- What is sound therapy? 2:30
- What is a sound bath? 5:00
- What is trauma-informed sound therapy 12:00
- Trauma-informed sound therapy vs. traditional sound therapy 19:40
What Is Sound Therapy?
- What does it mean for your chakras to be aligned?
- Using sound therapy to connect with your body to determine the next steps to healing
- Benefits of sound therapy
- What are the different types of sound therapy?
What Is A Sound Bath?
- What to expect when participating in a sound bath
- How community affects a sound bath experience
- Integrating journaling into sound therapy
- Can you perform self-guided sound therapy?
What Is Trauma-Informed Sound Therapy
- Why is trauma-informed sound therapy important?
- Shaping a sound bath experience for all types of trauma
- Understanding that trauma can come in many forms
- Why it is important to allow time for processing after a sound bath has ended
Trauma-Informed Sound Therapy Vs. Traditional Sound Therapy
- How to remove any power dynamics in trauma-informed therapy
- Creating collaboration and community
- Learning to establish safety and trust when introducing sound therapy to clients who have experienced any type of trauma
- How can someone with a trauma history benefit from sound therapy?
Connect With Me
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Sign up for my free email course: www.holisticcounselingpodcast.com
Resources Mentioned And Useful Links:
Chris McDonald: Welcome to the holistic counseling podcast, where you discover diverse wellness modalities, advice on growing your integrative practice and grow confidence in being your unique self. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I'm so glad you're here for the journey.
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Ready to put yourself first, go to holistic counseling podcast.com/holistic-webinars/looking forward to seeing you there. Welcome back to the holistic counseling podcast. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I am sitting here so excited to bring back a former guest LA Adkins was here in episode 68 to talk about the life changing benefits of holistic practices.
If you haven't heard it yet, I highly recommend it. Go back and listen. She came out and did a sound healing for us in our holistic happy hour, back in April at current wellness. And this was an in person one and it was phenomenal. And today's topic actually came up after a discussion. We had about potential triggers from sound healing.
She's gonna talk today about trauma informed sound healing and what that entails. She's a creative champion of solitude, storyteller, and certified sound practitioner. And mindfulness meditation guide. She currently practices as a licensed clinical social worker and holistic wellness, the entrepreneur and provides individual therapy, sound baths, public speaking services, and makes candles.
She specializes in working with entrepreneurs, professionals, and corporations. A fun fact about her is she is bilingual in Spanish. She studies Spanish for 11 years, including in college and studied abroad in Mexico. Welcome back to the podcast. LA,
LA Adkins: thank you so much. I'm so glad and excited to be back with you.
Um, and just to connect with you as always. Yeah.
Chris McDonald: I was listening back to our other episode today and, and we had some really good discussions. I thought we really dove deep into some holistic
LA Adkins: practices. Yeah. And I think what I think what we'll talk about today too, will be maybe an extension or a yeah, for sure.
Chris McDonald: Yeah, no, I'm so glad that we have connected and it's good to learn about you and, and that I didn't even realize that you spoke Spanish. that's new. Yeah.
LA Adkins: That's awesome. I hided, I hided, well,
Chris McDonald: never like crossed my mind.
So we all got these hidden talents, right? I love it. Well, I thought today, since we're gonna be talking about trauma informed healing, let's maybe we could just dive in a little bit more with sound healing too. So can you just talk some in general about what is sound healing?
LA Adkins: Yeah, sure. So sound healing or sound therapy?
Or sound baths. A lot of people use those terms. Yes, ably, but sound therapy is an ancient wellness and meditative practice, which usually uses singing balls. I have, I particularly use crystal court singing balls, but the practice uses singing balls and other musical instrument. To help bring the chakra centers or the energy centers in the body into alignment.
And it's really a practice that helps to calm the mind and the body calm the nervous system and really help you attune to the mind body connection. One of the things that I like to talk. About before I start a sound bath is what people can expect, because it's really a practice that helps you connect more with your body and use the information or what comes up for you during a sound bath to kind of as guidance to help you to figure out, well, what are my next steps and what do I need to do with this?
What does my body need right now? What do I need right now? So that's pretty much what sound healing is. And just some of the benefits of the practice are decreased stress, decreased anxiety, also improved mood, improved sleep, and just really helping you to just be more in tune with your body, even as you navigate your everyday life, because you will have some practice as a result of participating in a sound bath, you'll have some practice with paying attention to what's happening in your body.
And. Really supporting yourself through those changes. And
Chris McDonald: are there different types of sound healing besides just like crystal
LA Adkins: bowls and yes there. So I, my sound baths, I have tons of instruments now. that's excellent. So in, in my sound baths, I use. Quartz crystal singing bowls. I have a rains stick, an ocean drum.
I have a flute, a gong T shows, which are Buddhist. Symbols are kind of handheld symbols. You've probably seen them before. And then what else do I have? I have something else that I'm not mentioning right now. And I'm trying to look around the room. Um, I know I have another, another instrument that I'm leaving off, but I have all of that to say, I use a wide variety of instruments.
You will encounter some sound bass that only have. Crystal singing bowls. You might have, you might find some that only use Tibetan singing bowls, which are the middle singing bowls. They're usually gold and color. I've also, I've never participated in this type of sound bath, but I've also seen gong baths, where you have a sound, you participate in a sound bath that only has gongs.
And so there are so many different types. Sound baths and they all have, they might have a certain theme or it might be for a certain group or population of people. So there really is a pretty wide variety of what you'll find. If you are looking to participate in a sound bath. Um, I find too
Chris McDonald: that drumming can be very therapeutic too.
Cuz I went to a yoga class lunch where they had hand Drumm. Through the yoga, which was to me are the ultimate mind, body spirit experience. And then if you've ever gone out to a drumming event to drum with community, there's something about that. That's like it touches you and like deep inside spiritual, primal.
I don't even know what the word is. It's hard to put into words. Isn't it? Somehow sometimes how sound affects your whole nervous system. To me, it's a full holistic experience. Mm-hmm it is. Have you found that
LA Adkins: too? Yeah, that's that's what I found it really is. It's kind of, it's a full body experience. You are able to achieve mental clarity because your, your mind is activated and that's why.
For the sound bass that I lead, I will leave some time at the end for processing, for people who would like to share or feel comfortable sharing what came up for them, you know, what, what were they thinking about or how did different things feel for them? How did they respond to the different instruments?
And so you are kind of activating different parts of the brain and then you are also. There are different things that are happening in your body as well. And so, and you're, you're doing this also in community with other people, which also impacts your process. Yes, for sure. I think there are a lot of different things, um, that, that are happening for you and that impact how you might experience a sound bath.
Chris McDonald: I, from my experience, I, I went to another sound bath. She did it was awesome. But just to try it again, just to see if it was different or go through it, but it, it does leave you just this grounded centered. I wanna say connected. I felt like aligned with everything. I don't know if that's chakras, like you mentioned, or what it was, but that's, those are kind of the words that come to mind for me.
I, I also like cuz you had journaling as part of the component with that, which I think was helping. Too to really process the experience
LA Adkins: mm-hmm . Yeah. And I think the journaling piece is helpful. I, I like to, even, even when I do therapy, I like to work with clients in a way that doesn't leave them dependent on me.
And what I mean by that is that I am. I'm here with you and I'm walking alongside you during your journey, and I'm here to support you. And as we're working together, I want you to leave with some things that if for whatever reason I'm not available or I'm not around that, you still have some things in your toolbox.
And some practice with those things that you can utilize outside of the therapeutic space. So I like to approach my sound baths in the same way. And so if, as far as the journaling component, you might, you know, you, something may happen for you outside of the sound bath, and you might think back to a journaling exercise and you're like, oh, we did this journaling.
You know, there was this journaling prompt that helped me work through this, or there was this practice that was really helpful for me, that I now want to adopt, you know, in my everyday life. And so I try to sprinkle in those things as well, because I really want people to walk away with something, something that they can use outside of, you know, attending another sound bath.
Chris McDonald: That makes sense. It's almost like empowering people to find their own healing. Yeah, which brings me to a question too, cause I know the sound bath is part of a community and that makes a big difference in the benefits, but is it something that you can do at home to help yourself kind of ground and get yourself more settled in your mind and body?
LA Adkins: You mean sound therapy or doing for
Chris McDonald: yourself? Yep. Instead of somebody else doing it for
LA Adkins: you and yes. So, so it is something that you can do for yourself. And I actually got a lot of practice. Doing it for myself before I led my first sound bath. My very first sound bath that I led was actually virtually because it was, everything was still kind of shut down and people were not as open to being out.
And so that the accessibility wasn't there in terms of, and, and not just accessibility, I think a lot of people's level of comfort mind included was. Did not align with connecting with people in person. So I got a lot of practice in leading sound baths at home, you know, by myself and just with myself.
And one of the things that I noticed, and one of the challenges for me is that when it's just me, it's kind of. It's like, it's a free for all I can, I can, I can, it can look whatever way I want it to look. And the only person that I have to think about is myself. It was a very sacred practice for me and it still is.
And I think when you bring other people into it, there is. There, it can still be this free flowing process. And I'm able to apply the things that I have learned in leading sound baths with myself when I lead them for other people there. But there's a lot more intentionality that goes into it. And, and my role changes too.
I go from kind of being the. I guess the facilitator and the receiver to now I am facilitating this process and I'm still receiving, but that looks a bit different. So one of the things that I am doing when I'm leading a sound bath is that I'm being very present and I'm taking inventory. So when I'm leading a sound bath, I'm scanning the room.
and I'm looking around to see how are people doing from what I can see. Is there anyone that has their hand raised, which I'll get to that in a, I think we'll talk a little bit. Yeah, we'll get in a second. And I'm taking inventory of several different people and, and so not just myself. And so there is a.
Level of responsibility that I feel with that. And I think that someone entrusting me to lead a sound bath experience for them. I take that very seriously and I think it's something very sacred and there's an exchange of energy that's taking place. And so I wanna be. Really intentional when I am kind of the person leading the sound bath, that I am holding space for those people in a way that they can walk away and feel like, okay, I got what I needed.
And while I was here, I felt safe and I felt comfortable, which brings us
Chris McDonald: too. um, very good trauma informs sound therapy. So why is that
LA Adkins: important? So trauma inform sound therapy is really important. because you never know who's in the room. When I lead group sound baths or sound baths for groups, I don't necessarily have individual contacts with each person.
There is a participation waiver that everyone fill out, but I'm not having, you know, one on one in depth conversations or sessions or anything with everyone who attends prior to the sound bath. And so I had that, what that means is that I have very limited information about them, about their. Lived experiences about their more specific history, especially as it relates to trauma.
And so when I lead a sound bath, I always come in with the assumption or with the thought, I should say that there's a possibility that there is someone here who has had a traumatic experience or they've experienced something that they consider to be traumatic. And I use that language very intentionally because I think so.
When people hear trauma, they, they assume, oh, it has to be that there's this big event that took place, that there was this tragic car accident or that someone died and that's not always the case. And so I always kind of come in with it on my mind that it's possible that someone here has experienced trauma.
And the thing with that is that there is a spectrum, you know, there are some people who have, who have very extensive trauma histories, and then there are some people who may not. And I. Like for that to change the way that I lead. And so I kind of come in using kind of my own knowledge and experience as a therapist with trauma informed approaches and practices, and, and also just my own personal ex.
Experiences as well. Um, I also, I have a, an extensive trauma history, and so I kind of come in wanting to be very intentional about kind of what that looks like for me and, and how I might shape the sound bath experience to hold space. For everyone, including people that have experienced trauma. So what
Chris McDonald: inspired you to start leading your sound bass with more trauma informed
LA Adkins: approach?
Yeah, so that, that's a great question, Chris. What inspired me was actually. A sound bath that I believe you were at. I think it might have been,
Chris McDonald: I kinda knew this one.
LA Adkins: yeah, it might have been sound bath that I led for the holistic happy hour series. If, if I'm remembering, I think that was the sound bath. So I'm gonna say that I was inspired.
Uh, what do they call it? Trial by fire
Chris McDonald: yes, for sure. That's how we.
LA Adkins: So there was, there were a couple of different things that happened, um, at that sound bath, during the collective processing at the end of the sound bath, there were a couple of people, one person who shared that they were startled when I started to play my ocean drum.
And then there was another person who shared about their experience with the ocean drum that. They had a particular association with rain and with water. And I think I remember when they shared that, I remember thinking to myself that's not something that I had considered. I was, I think. I think a lot of people might assume myself included because I use rain sounds sometimes to go to sleep.
I think people might assume, oh, this is, this is a water is relaxing. And it's something that can have a calming effect for people, but that's not, that's an assumption. That's not the case. True everyone. So I think I was able to take their feedback in the processing and I remember. I remember experiencing some guilt around that, about the fact that I had, that I had made some assumptions and that I had not considered that beforehand.
So that was the first experience that kind of made me start to think about, are my, am I leading my sound bass in a trauma inform? Way in using a trauma informed approach. The other thing that happened during this sound bath is that I had someone get up in the middle of the sound bath and they left and they never came back.
And, or they, I shouldn't say they never came back. They came back after the sound bath was over, so they didn't leave the, the premises, but they left and went somewhere and, you know, came back and joined us when we were processing. And. That was the other experience that made me really want to check in with myself.
about how, what the steps that I am taking to help people to feel safe and to feel comfortable, but also just checking in with people about how they're experiencing the sound bath. And it's pretty difficult for me to do that while the sound bath is taking place. But I do think it's important to. Hold space for people to really honor the needs of their body and do whatever they need to do and, and really give them permission if they do need to leave the room or if they need to shift.
And, and also just being able to tolerate myself as a facilitator, being able to tolerate when there are people that may not have the most pleasant experience during a sound bath, or I may play an instrument that they might not like. And so one of the questions. I ask now as I'll ask, what, what was your favorite instrument or were there any instruments that you didn't particularly like?
And that's really helpful feedback for me, but kind of to your point in the beginning, no sound bath is gonna be the same. even, even if I were to plan a sound bath, exactly the same as the last one. It's not gonna be the same experience for myself or for the people who are attending. So that those are just a couple of experiences that inspired me to really want to use a trauma informed approach.
And I really love that accountability is one of my personal values because I was able to. Navigate that experience in a way that helps me to really release that guilt and sit with myself and add good for you. Yeah, it was. And that was really helpful because the guilt wasn't serving me. But one, once I started asking myself, okay, how can this, you know, this is information, how can I use this information to improve my practice?
In moving forward, because that's really what this is about. And when you think about experiencing a sound bath, participating in, in a sound bath, that's a part of the practice too, really practicing that acceptance and being able to sit and be with whatever it is that comes up. And so I was able to really.
Take my own advice, so to speak uh, but
Chris McDonald: it's very counselor like of YouTube. we gotta hold space to process. Right? I know the general public doesn't always say stuff like that. but I think that's, I think that's perfect though. Uh, but allowing that space and time to be able to. What, what is your experience?
And just to reflect on that and sit with it in a moment, and I'm glad too, you mentioned about working through the guilt. Cause I was gonna say that you were doing, you know, the best you could. It's no need to beat yourself up on that. And I'm glad that you're able to just recognize that to learning experience and look at it more objectively too.
So what does it look like? So if, if somebody comes to a trauma informed sound therapy, how is that different than like regular. That somebody that doesn't use
LA Adkins: that approach. Yeah. So I think there are, I think a few different things that, or a few different steps that I take to make sure that I'm leading my sound baths in a, using a trauma informed approach.
And one of the, I think one of the most simple but impactful things that I tried to do. is that I really try to dismantle any power dynamics that might be present and even, even with my, the positioning of myself. So one of the things that I, that I like to do. If the space allows is I try to sit in a circle.
I try to have everyone sit in a circle and I am either in the circle with everyone, or I might be in the middle of the circle so that I can kind of look around the room and see everyone. And everyone can see me. But really making sure that I am, if possible, like I said, that I'm not sitting at the front and once again, because I don't like for there to be any power dynamics, you know, I'm not, I'm not better than anyone in the room.
I'm not the leader of the room and I'm not. I'm not above anyone in the room, but we are all in this space together. So one of the kind of trauma informed principles and practices just around collaboration and mutuality. And so that is why I try to be mindful of that. I also am really intentional about establishing safety and trust all throughout the process, but especially in my opening.
So I will never start a sound. Or you'll never come to a soundbath of mine. And I just jump in and start playing my instruments because I'm, I'm taking you on a journey. And so before we start that journey, I want to. Be really intentional about kind of reminders of, you know, what's gonna be happening, what you can expect.
We also do intention setting and things like that. I invite, I, or I ask if anyone in the room has any sensitivity to music and sound, which is really important. And that was one of my takeaways from the earlier experience that I mentioned. So I'll ask if anyone does ha have any sensitivity. I will invite people to raise their hands during the sound bath, because most people attending the sound bath.
They do so lying down and with their eyes closed. And so I am the only one that's gonna be seeing their hands raised so I can adjust the sound and, or my position as needed because I do move around the room. With my instruments. And so I will invite people to, to raise their hands just as a signal to me.
I think another thing is that I try to help people to feel empowered and to use their voice, uh, which is another trauma informed principle or practice. And so I give people choices. So one of the things that I will do is when we, in the beginning, when I'm inviting people to kind of get into. Meditation position or whatever position they're gonna be in for the sound bath.
I will say you can close your eyes. You can find a soft gaze on the floor or somewhere else in the room. You can look up at the ceiling because I want people to have choices. I want, I don't want anyone to feel like they have to be boxed in, or that they, they don't have agency in what their experience looks like.
I really want them to. To feel like they have a sense of, uh, power so to speak. I also am really intentional about asking for feedback and that mostly takes place after the sound bath has taken place. But even before we start, I'll ask, does anyone have any feedback? Does anyone have any questions for me before we get started?
and I think that helps to really reinforce that sense of safety and trust. Because I think when I ask those questions, people can know, oh, my voice matters. I matter here, how I feel is valued in this space and by this person who's leading this experience for me. So those are some of the things that I try to do.
I think one other, I really important thing. Really having transparency, which is another trauma informed principle and practice. And it's a personal value of mine. I really try to be transparent. And so even before people come to the sound bath, I am thinking about the language that I'm using on my website or in the materials where I'm sharing the information about the event.
I really try to be transparent and make sure that the language. Consistent, but also that people know exactly to the extent that they can, they know exactly what is gonna happen. And I revisit that, like I said, kind of in my opening before we even start the sound bath experience.
Chris McDonald: And I, what I noticed with, um, the second one that I went to was how you said that, like here is this instrument now, like you would really talk about each one and what, what to expect with that.
And I think that, that helped me to settle down with my nervous system too, to be like, oh, okay. So I know it's coming.
LA Adkins: Yeah. And I think that going back to the. Example, I talked about earlier, where there were some people who were startled or felt uncomfortable with some of the instruments. I started to do that.
So just to try to minimize some of that, so that, because it can be jarring if you've never heard any of these instruments before, which I have most of the people that have attended my sound baths have never attended a sound bath before. So they likely have not heard those instruments. And so when. I'm able to play my instruments at the beginning.
And I do it very briefly, but it's almost like, you know, here is this, here is this instrument and this is what it sounds like. So that once I do start the sound bath, you're not hearing all of these sounds that you've never heard before, because that can be jarring. It can be startling. Especially
Chris McDonald: with your eyes closed, you know, in a space around people you don't know right.
And I like how you said you could also move if you feel like you need to stand or move around. And I really appreciated that too. And as somebody I'm someone with back pain and I can't lay on the floor, it's very painful for me to lay a flat on my back for long. So that just felt me, gave me freedom too, to move.
I could see if somebody with trauma too, like if they felt that restlessness or, you know, just getting, having that freedom. To be able to get up and move around
LA Adkins: and, yep. I think that's very, I think knowing that that's okay. And knowing that, that, like I'm giving you permission to do this in the sense that it's not gonna be disruptive to the experience, but also my hope is that my giving you permission allows you to give yourself permission and be okay with yourself.
If you do need to get up, or if you do need to move around or even if you need to leave. Leave the space, right? Hmm.
Chris McDonald: Cause that can feel intimidating if you, cause I know I went there. I didn't know anybody and if you don't know anyone there and it's like, uh, no, everybody else is doing it, but just it's okay.
So telling yourself it's okay. Internally and, and allowing that, that space for yourself, I think is important. So how can someone with a trauma history benefit from sound
LA Adkins: therapy? That's a really good question. I, I think there are a couple of different things that come to mind for me. One of the main things.
And I don't know that this is specific to people that have experienced trauma, but I think one of the most common points of feedback that I've gotten from people after they experience a sound bath is that they feel very relaxed. So I think helping to really promote that relaxation and the calming of the nervous system, I think can be very beneficial to someone who has experienced trauma.
One other thing that I talk about in the beginning in terms of what people can expect or what might come up for them during a sound bath, is that. You might experience an emotional release and that might show up in several different ways. It might show up as crying. It might show up as different thoughts arising.
It might show up as memories that you have and releasing that can be really helpful for someone who has experienced trauma. I think one other thing. Comes to mind for me is the going back to what I was saying before, just about some of the principles and practices of kind of trauma informed care or using trauma informed approaches.
Is really just that helping to establish that safety and that trust. I think for people who have experienced trauma, that is something that is disrupted, that their sense of safety and trust can be disrupted. And so being in a space that feels safe for them and where they feel like they, um, they. The facilitator.
I think that is really important. And I really reinforce that all throughout the sound baths. I talk, you'll hear me say this countless times, you know, whatever feels safe and feels comfortable for you. And I say that because. That looks different for everyone. And I don't wanna make any assumptions about what that means to you.
And so I think having, being in a space where you feel like there is someone who is caring for me in that way, someone who's kind of creating this experience with me in mine and someone who is taking the steps necessary. To help me to feel safe and feel comfortable. I think that can be really beneficial to someone as well.
Who's who has experienced trauma. One thing that I'm thinking about doing, and I don't know if I mentioned this to you, Chris or not, but I am considering leading a sound bath just for people who have experienced trauma. Oh, that's great. Yeah. I think there. Something about kind of really fostering that community and doing so in a meaningful way and being in a space where you can feel seen and feel heard around, but particularly around an experience that you've had.
And so I think that's another way that someone that who's experienced trauma can benefit from sound therapy. I think having, I was gonna mention that earlier, if. Anyone who's listening, who has a trauma history. I would encourage you to participate in a sound bath if that feels safe and comfortable for you.
But also if you can have access to a space where there are other people there who have also experienced trauma, I think that can help you feel like you're not alone. And that can really reinforce the, the overall benefits of participating in a sound bath, because you're doing so in a community of other people who you can relate to in a way that may not be there if you're just attending, you know, a regular sound bath, if that makes sense.
Chris McDonald: I appreciate that. I think that would be very therapeutic and beneficial and yeah, I think that's a wonderful idea. So have I missed anything else you wanted
LA Adkins: to. One other thing that, that I think is important to do that is tr like a trauma informed approach is really acknowledging differences within groups.
And so that's also something that I like to do. Um, sometimes. And depending on how much time we have, and also depending on, I, I try to read the room as well. Um, so sometimes it, I may sense that people might not really be open to doing introductions or, you know, they just wanna focus on the sound bath, but I think acknowledging the differences.
Within the space can be really helpful as well, just so that I think that helps to people to make connections I've often found after sound baths. And I think this happened too with your, um, the sound bath that I led for your holistic happy hour series, people were connecting afterwards and exchanging it was wonderful.
Perfect information. Yeah. And there were some people that already knew each other, but I think creating a space where you can really know who's in the room. And so as people are introducing themselves, It's like, oh, I didn't know. This person was interested in that. I like to do that too. And so you're, you are holding space for people in a trauma informed way, but you are also like helping supporting people in building community for themselves.
And I think that can be really helpful as well. Very healing. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris McDonald: Mm-hmm so what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you.
LA Adkins: So I am on Instagram. My Instagram handle is reconnect with you. PLLC. My website is reconnect with you. Dot org. I believe that's it.
Chris McDonald: all right. Well, we'll have that in the show notes, but thanks so much for coming back on the podcast, LA you're welcome.
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